1 OHIO DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 2 STATE OF OHIO 3 4 - - - 5 6 IN THE MATTER OF: 7 Pre-Bid Project No. 13-0002 8 County/Route/Section: 9 ALLEN-75-5.53, Part 1 10 ALLEN-117/309-18.65/15.17, Part 2. 11 12 - - - 13 14 The above-entitled pre-bid meeting was 15 held at ODOT, District 1 Headquarters at 1885 N. 16 McCullough Street, Lima, Ohio, 45801 at 1:00 p.m., 17 Room 39, on Tuesday, January 8, 2013. 18 19 - - - 20 21 22 HOLMES REPORTING & VIDEO 982 Havensport Drive 23 Cincinnati, Ohio 45240 (513) 442-3308 24 25 1 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: All right. We'll 3 go ahead and get started. Almost on time. My name is 4 Darren Schimmoeller, I'm the Construction 5 Administrator for District 1 here. We're all 6 assembled today for a pre-bid meeting for Project 7 13-0002 Project Identification Number 76691, which is 8 comprised of two parts. Part 1 being Allen County 9 Interstate 75 Section 5.53. Part 2 being Allen County 10 State Route 117 Section 18.65, and State Route 309 11 Section 15.17. 12 If you haven't already signed in at the 13 back, there is a sign-in sheet back there. You don't 14 have to get up now and do that. I would ask though, 15 and I'll try to remind you at the end of the meeting, 16 too, to go back there and sign so that we have a 17 record for the stenographer. 18 It is -- We do have a court 19 stenographer here. He will be transcribing the entire 20 meeting, and it will be posted for you, for your 21 reference and for your information. It will not be a 22 contractual document. It's only for your information 23 and reference. Anything that does transpire from this 24 that requires a contractual change, will be posted by 25 addendum. So, be looking for that in the near future 2 1 then if anything needs to be addressed. 2 As I said, I'm Darren Schimmoeller. 3 I'm gonna go ahead and go around the room, do all the 4 introductions, and ask that you state your name and 5 whatever entity you are representing, and we'll just 6 zigzag back and forth across here. Eric. 7 ERIC SCHECKELHOFF: Eric Scheckelhoff, 8 I'm with the Ohio Department of Transportation, 9 District 1, Plan Engineering. I am the Project 10 Manager, Design Engineer on the Allen 117/309 project 11 Part 2. 12 JAMES CLARK: Jim Clark, Ohio 13 Department of Transportation, District 1, Plan 14 Engineering, Project Manager for Part 1, Allen 75, 15 5.53. 16 ERIC SHERER: I'm Eric Sherer, I'm with 17 Parsons Brinckerhoff. 18 ED CARMICHAEL: I'm Ed Carmichael with 19 Parsons Brinckerhoff. I'm the Project Manager for the 20 consultant for 5.53, Part 1. 21 LUKE JOHANSEN: Luke Johansen with ODOT 22 and I'm the Project Engineer for Planning Part 2 for 23 this. 24 JEFF WIEMKEN: Jeff Wiemken, Miller 25 Brothers Construction. 3 1 RANDY ZEISLOFF: Randy Zeisloff, Miller 2 Brothers Construction. 3 JAMES SHEEHY: James Sheehy, John R. 4 Jurgensen Company. 5 JOSH CARTER: Josh Carter, John R. 6 Jurgensen. 7 DENNIS HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 8 Brothers Construction. 9 SHARON SZYMANSKI: Sharon Shymanski, 10 Miller Brothers Construction. 11 JON NEIBEL: John Neibel, Shelly 12 Company. 13 TIM OBERST: Tim Oberst, Shelly 14 Company. 15 BRYAN KARHOFF: Bryan Karhoff, Shelly 16 Company. 17 PAUL BAKER: Paul Baker, Shelly & 18 Sands. 19 DUSTIN WILSON: Dustin Wilson, Shelly & 20 Sands. 21 TERI HIRSCHFELD: Teri Hirschfeld, 22 Quality Ready Mix. 23 KEVIN OHL: Kevin Ohl, Kokosong. 24 SCOTT OVERMIER: Scott Overmier, 25 Kokosong. 4 1 BRAD BOWERS: Brad Bowers, Kokosong. 2 SEAN WADE: Sean Wade, Eagle Bridge. 3 JIM CRAWFORD: Jim Crawford, John R. 4 Jurgensen. 5 CHUCK KETCHEL: Chuck Ketchel, E.S. 6 Wagner Company. 7 JIM WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner 8 Company. 9 RICH ARNOLD: Rich Arnold, Great Lakes 10 Construction. 11 STEVE LAYER: Steve Layer, Great Lakes 12 Construction. 13 TROY STANLEY: Troy Stanley, Lane 14 Construction. 15 JIM COLVARD: Jim Colvard, Lane 16 Construction. 17 MEL WILLIAMS: Mel Williams, E.S. 18 Wagner Company. 19 CRAIG WING: Craig Wing, E.S. Wagner 20 Company. 21 DAN SMITH: Dan Smith, John R. 22 Jurgensen. 23 JOHN HELBERG: John Helberg, Gerken 24 Paving Company. 25 SCOTT MULLINS: Scott Mullins, ODOT. 5 1 CHRIS HUGHES: Chris Hughes, ODOT, 2 Department 1. 3 ANDY THOMPSON: Andy Thompson, Federal 4 Highway Administration, District 1. 5 RANDY KNAPP: Randy Knapp, CTL 6 Engineering. 7 RANDY DEW: Randy Dew, Bowser-Morner. 8 CHRISSY FINCH: Chrissy Finch, Beaver 9 Excavating. 10 JOHN PERRY: John Perry, Beaver 11 Excavating. 12 STEVE FEIX: Steve Feix, Beaver 13 Excavating. 14 JOE WATSON: Joe Watson, National Lime 15 & Stone. 16 ERIC PFENNING: Eric Pfenning, ODOT 17 Highway Management. 18 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Stacy 19 Schimmoeller, with ODOT. 20 MARK ROBERTS: Mark Roberts with ODOT. 21 DAN KASEMAN: Dan Kaseman, ODOT 22 District 1. 23 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Okay. Thank you, 24 Everyone. Thank you for attending today. We 25 appreciate it. Short notice, but glad you all made it 6 1 to the pre-bid meeting. 2 Don't have a lot of formal presentation 3 to get started here. The only thing I'm gonna ask is 4 that when you do pose a question or make a statement, 5 please start with your name and who you're 6 representing again. Even if you ask 20 questions, 7 we'd still ask that you repeat your name and the 8 entity that you're representing for stenographer 9 purposes. 10 Get things started, we do want to 11 clarify some of the environmental commitments that 12 have been put in the plans and in the proposal. Stacy 13 Schimmoeller is our Environmental Coordinator. She's 14 gonna touch on some of the things that may be 15 forthcoming as far as some changes that might be 16 pertinent. 17 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Okay. So, Stacy 18 Schimmoeller, ODOT Environmental. So for the Allen 19 117/309 project, there is one stream on it. We have a 20 Regional General Permit for impacts to the stream. It 21 does not allow for temporary impacts. Let me run 22 through the stuff. This is FYI. We have spill 23 containment kit on site, and this is the same for both 24 of the projects. They both have to have spill 25 containment kit, they're just separate permits, 7 1 waterway permits. 2 All of the streams, wetlands and lakes, 3 ponds, et cetera are to demarcated in the field prior 4 to any disturbance on the project sites. 5 Has a waterway -- This is a waterway 6 permit for the 117/309. It should have been -- It 7 should be in the bid package, I believe. Yeah, 8 Temporary impacts not authorized for that one. So 9 that's one, pretty easy one. 10 The other one is the ALL-75-0.21. 11 Okay. So, tree clearing is limited to take place only 12 between September 15th and April 15th every year. 13 Ottaway River Bikeway shall remain open 14 throughout construction. Flaggers are to be used when 15 necessary. Road Work Ahead signs shall be used. 16 Construction fencing installed along the construction 17 limits. No staging on the bikeway. 18 NOI is required for both projects, and 19 storm water pollution prevention plans, petroleum 20 containment soil notes are included for five of the 21 parcels. 22 Asbestos was found in structures that 23 are to be demolished, and one of the structures on 24 309. 25 Removal, containment, transportation 8 1 and disposal should all be handled by a trained NESHAP 2 professional, trained and certified. 3 Okay. The biggest thing on this one is 4 the Regional General Permit. It's currently in 5 revision with the Army Corps of Engineers. 6 Currently there are certain wetlands 7 and streams that are not to be impacted. We'll try to 8 talk about how it must be fenced and demarcated before 9 construction starts. 10 Permission has to be granted to impact 11 only a few of the wetlands found in the project area. 12 Ensure that those remain protected, especially the 13 correct amounts for the ones we have authorized for 14 impact part of them. So we have part of it, gets 15 impacted, part of it has to be preserved. So that's a 16 big thing to watch out for. 17 Temporary fills must be designed and 18 constructed so they -- so that they hydraulic opening 19 provides capacity for a discharge equal to twice the 20 highest monthly flow without producing a rise in the 21 backwater above the Ordinary High Water Mark. That's 22 part of the Regional General Permit. 23 There's -- I guess if there's any 24 questions on that we can talk about it later. But the 25 monthly flow information can be found on the stream 9 1 stats website. 2 Work cannot begin in the Ottawa River 3 or Little Ottawa River until the Project Engineer has 4 accepted the working drawings for the temporary work 5 pads. 6 The bottom of the river where the 7 temporary work pads go must be restored to 8 pre-construction contours. 9 No temporary fill is permitted within 10 any of the wetlands. 11 No work is permitted in the Ottawa 12 River between April 15th to June 30th every year. The 13 temporary work pad can go in the river, as long as 14 it's installed before the 15th, and is not changed in 15 any way until After June 30th. 16 A spill containment kit I already 17 mentioned. 65 gallons is the requirement on that one. 18 The only impact allowed are those that 19 are shown on the plans, and are contained within the 20 waterway permits. And be prepared for visits from 21 myself and Army Corps. 22 That was kind of fast. Any questions? 23 BRAD BOWERS: I have. 24 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Let's go right 25 here. 10 1 BRAD BOWERS: Brad Bowers with 2 Kokosong. So, I thought I heard you say one of these 3 requirements there was no temporary impact. You said 4 we are allowed to use temporary fill as long as we 5 provide appropriate -- 6 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Yeah. The Allen 7 117/309 there's one stream on it. No temporary 8 impacts on that one. The other, currently we're 9 allowed to have temporary impacts on the Ottawa River 10 and the Little Ottawa River, but not on any other 11 ones. 12 BRAD BOWERS: So we can put a temporary 13 -- 14 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Not all the way 15 across as far as I remember. I don't think it can go 16 all the way across, but you can go partial. 17 BRAD BOWERS: Spelled out in the 18 permit? 19 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Yeah, it will be. 20 It's small. 21 BRAD BOWERS: Is that already part of 22 -- That's not part of the proposal? 23 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: No, 'cause it's 24 not finalized. I could look it up. I don't think 25 it's -- Typically not -- they're not allowed to go all 11 1 the way across. Some times they are. I'll have to -- 2 We haven't got it -- Since it's not finalized -- It's 3 not finalized. 4 BRAD BOWERS: Brad Bowers with Kokosong 5 again. When will that be finalized? 6 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Soon. It's with 7 the Army Corps of Engineers right now. We can't speed 8 them up, so. 9 BRAD BOWERS: Understood. We need to 10 know whether or not we can cross that stream. Has a 11 pretty big affect on our cost. 12 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: So long as the 13 temporary access fill can accommodate twice the 14 highest monthly flow you should be okay. Without 15 backing up with all that that I just rattled off. 16 BRAD BOWERS: Can the draft document be 17 made available to the FDP so we can understand what it 18 is that we can fill to accommodate twice the monthly 19 flow? 20 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Yeah. Go ahead. 21 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Is that something 22 we an provide by a draft document? 23 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Um-hum. Yeah. 24 Obviously we don't. It's not finalized, 'cause it's 25 not -- We haven't gotten it back from the corps, but 12 1 typically they'll call out if it can't be across the 2 entire river, and we haven't seen that yet. So, at 3 this point I would say it's okay, but I don't want to 4 say for sure because we haven't got the actual 5 finalized document back yet. They didn't call it out 6 in the first round, so hopefully it's doesn't come in 7 the final round. 8 BRAD BOWERS: Is this the environmental 9 document that's referenced in the Addendum 7 or are 10 here others? 11 JAMES CLARK: Yeah, same one. 12 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Is there a 13 question back there? 14 JIM COLVARD: Yeah, Jim Colvard with 15 Lane. On the demo of the buildings and the 16 contaminated tanks that's gonna be removed, or they 17 already been removed for soil conditions there for 18 demolition? 19 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: I don't think 20 there are tanks. 21 JIM COLVARD: Fuel tanks? 22 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Not that I know 23 of. There are five parcels that have potential 24 petroleum contaminated soil, but I don't there are any 25 tanks that have to be removed. Correct? 13 1 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Yeah. Any other 2 questions regarding environmental concerns? 3 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 4 Brothers. You said, "soon," is that before the 24th 5 or before the 17th? 6 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: We hope so. 7 DENNY HINES: 'Cause if we don't have 8 that, we're gonna come back and anything is different 9 than what's in that permit, there's nothing we can do 10 after the bid. 11 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: The conditions 12 will become easier than what they currently are. 13 Currently we are only allowed temporary impacts for 14 two of the streams, which is Ottawa River and the 15 Little Ottawa River. After the conditions come back 16 it will be -- We are trying to get them so that there 17 are temporary impacts permitted on all of those 18 streams. 19 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We will post the 20 draft permit, and if anything comes up that would 21 change the contract that would be addressed as it 22 would any other time. You'll see CMS spec book. 23 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 24 Brothers again. That's Addendum 7, is that -- that's 25 what we have to do for Addendum 7, it says we have to 14 1 look at this stuff, are we to look at these papers or 2 we can't claim anything afterwards? 3 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: You have Addendum 4 7 with you, Jim? 5 JAMES CLARK: Yes. That was in the 6 environmental fencing for the protective fencing. And 7 it does indicate that prior to the commencement of the 8 constructive activity, award contractor some place 9 fencing around. "In accordance with Section 102.05, 10 the construction materials & specifications, documents 11 identifying the location of these areas are available 12 for viewing at the ODOT District 1 office. Failure to 13 review these documents will be a bar to any 14 additionally sought compensation or damages for work 15 performed or damages incurred by the Contractor 16 related to these environmentally sensitive areas." 17 DENNY HINES: So, you're gonna get us a 18 copy of those through addendum or something? 19 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Yes. Chuck. 20 CHUCK KETCHEL: Does this include 21 anything to do with loss creek -- 22 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: State your name. 23 CHUCK KETCHEL: Check KETCHEL with E.S. 24 Wagner. 25 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Thank you. 15 1 CHUCK KETCHEL: Does this impact stream 2 impact, does that include the loss creek steam across 3 there that we have to work in? 4 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Yes. Currently 5 there are no temporary impacts permitted in loss 6 creek. Therein lyes why we are asking for a update to 7 the permit. 8 JAMES WILSON: Well how do we -- Jim 9 Wilson, E.S. Wagner Company. How do you get in there 10 and do your work? 11 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: That's why we're 12 asking for an updated permit. 13 JAMES WILSON: Well, we got to put a 14 bid in by the 24th? 15 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: Do you know 16 what -- 17 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Our intent is to 18 have an answer prior to the bid to that question. We 19 do not have an answer to that question, we realize it 20 is gonna impact the bid, but that will have to be 21 addressed at that time. 22 JAMES WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner 23 Company. We're gonna have to have enough time that we 24 can properly address what you do provide us. We can't 25 just have a day or so in advance and expect a 16 1 turnaround and give you a properly analyzed situation 2 here. 3 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We understand 4 that. If it requires us delaying or deferring, that 5 is something that will be explored. 6 CHUCK KETCHEL: Chuck Ketchel, E.S. 7 Wagner. That creek has a dramatic impact on 8 everything as far as the schedule goes. We can't do 9 anything on 309 unless we get in that creek? 10 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We realize that. 11 STACY SCHIMMOELLER: The temporary, 12 temporary impacts, temporary fills will have the same 13 requirements as those on Little Ottawa and Ottawa 14 River with twice the highest monthly flow. It's the 15 same -- It's the standard language for all the future 16 general permits. It must be designed and constructed 17 so that the hydraulic opening provides capacity for a 18 discharge equal to the highest monthly flow without 19 producing a rise in the backwater above the Ordinary 20 High Water Mark. It's the same for all regional 21 general permits. 22 JAMES WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner 23 Company. In regard to your question. Following up on 24 Chuck's statement about this affects 309 and so forth. 25 We had submitted a question asking for consideration 17 1 in moving the 309 work until the 2014 season, and you 2 all came back and said you wanted it done at the end 3 or November 13. Is there any merit in revisiting that 4 issue? What's driving that work that has to be done 5 13th? Because it looks like to me, or it looks like 6 to us that if you could move that work to the 14th, 7 that might allow you some flexibility. Some of this 8 work could possibly be done where it wouldn't be 9 critical in a non-critical situation. 10 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We discussed that 11 internally. The question -- The answer to your 12 question about what is driving that commitment? ODOT, 13 as you guys all know, we make commitments long prior 14 to the construction of the project to property owners, 15 other governmental entities. The commitment that has 16 been made at this point is to have that 309 117 17 portion of this project complete in 2013. 18 Right now we understand that this is an 19 issue. We're hoping to have it resolved with enough 20 time for you guys to analyze how it's gonna impact 21 your bid so that we can still do this construction in 22 2013. If it gets to a point where that's not gonna be 23 feasible anymore, ODOT will address that. 24 I'll open it up to any other questions, 25 whether it be environmentally related or in general 18 1 with either part of the project. 2 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 3 Brothers. There's some temporary road that has to be 4 built early, and I'm saying "early" probably in 5 February. This job is still on the 24th, but 6 typically we get a contract in a month, that's 7 February 24th. Time we get the pre-construction done 8 and everything else, we're gonna to be into March, and 9 your schedule shows it starts the 1st of March, on, 10 not the temporary, on the other work, and I don't know 11 that we can get asphalt down in February. I don't 12 know that asphalt can be available in February or not. 13 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: The schedule 14 that's inserted into the plans is for information for 15 reference. That's what -- 16 DENNY HINES: Well -- 17 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: -- Guide -- It's 18 not contractual. 19 DENNY HINES: If that's the case, you 20 might as well throw it away because you can't follow 21 all that if you can't get started when you need to. 22 JAMES CLARK: And the pages were 23 removed. 24 DENNY HINES: Hah. 25 JAMES CLARK: There's a schedules were 19 1 removed from the plans. 2 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 3 Brothers. On Page 51 of the (Maintenance) Traffic, 4 there's a note down in the lower righthand corner 5 about milling off 2 inches on the shoulder and putting 6 2 inches, 2 inch of asphalt back on. Set up a 7 quantity of 10,200 square yards, and then said it's 8 include maintenance (sic) traffic. If that quantity 9 increases, what are you gonna do, if it decreases, 10 what are you gonna do? 51, Luke. 11 CHUCK KETCHEL: Darren, there are 12 numerous things that are wrong on those same lines, 13 the drainage that's incidental, the MOD, and if 14 something else pops up, how are we supposed to know 15 what's gonna pop up? 16 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Do any of you 17 want to address the question? Is it something we want 18 to answer? 19 ED CARMICHAEL: Well, I can address the 20 existing shoulder rehab that the quantity is provided 21 in the case in the scenario that the existing shoulder 22 just gets beat to death and you have something to take 23 as an overlaying exiting shoulder to repair that, at 24 the Project Engineer's direction, and so there's 25 enough quantity there to do shoulders one time. 20 1 DENNY HINES: Okay. So if we, if we 2 only do have of them, is ODOT gonna want money back? 3 CHUCK KETCHEL: That's a lump sum. 4 DENNY HINES: I know it is. I'm very 5 aware of that. 'Cause my next question is gonna be, 6 what if we do it twice? 7 CHUCK KETCHEL: That what we're saying 8 is we should really ask for unit prices for this work 9 to use as directed. If we don't use it, we don't use 10 it. If we use it, we get paid for it. Throw it into 11 lump MOD, I mean when you get all the guidance for. 12 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Is that something 13 that we want to take a look at and address, or is that 14 something we're gonna stand firm with what was in the 15 plans at this point in time? 16 LUKE JOHANSEN: That's not the only -- 17 DENNY HINES: Well, that's just one, 18 there's many of 'em, just like Chuck said, and I -- 19 You're opening yourselves up for a lot of cost that 20 you don't get anything out of and the contractor is 21 opening himself for a lot of expense. You guys get 22 paid because of the lump sum maintenance (sic) 23 traffic. Like moving a fire hydrant. Go in there and 24 says you have fire hydrants is part of maintenance 25 (sic) traffic. I don't know how many fire hydrants 21 1 you're gonna have to move. Denny Hines, Miller 2 Brothers again. 3 This maintenance (sic) traffic thing 4 that District 1 does is bad. For the contractor it's 5 bad and for the state, and I don't know who's making 6 the call, but somebody has got to look into this and 7 get it straightened out. I know Chuck would agree 8 with me on it. I don't know if everybody from 9 District 1 is under this thing or not, but it's a 10 mess. 11 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Well, I'll pose 12 the question to you guys. Do we want to take 13 individual questions about these items and address 14 them individually, or do we want to have them post the 15 pre-bid questions as they discover them, the ones that 16 they feel are the most pertinent that need to be 17 addressed, or do we want to look at this in general? 18 JAMES WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner. 19 We have posted some questions as it relates to the 20 MOT. We've gotten back some pretty generic answers 21 that basically says it's incidental to MOT. An 22 example of that is that there's a -- in four of the 23 ramps, there's a pretty good grade difference coming 24 in there that you've got to get off the I-75 to get 25 onto a ramp, and that's not detailed, and it's just 22 1 not a matter of just -- You know you got pretty good 2 speed there. You're gonna have some transition 3 distances and everything else. And it looks like to 4 me it needs to have a plan or something put together 5 to properly address those situations. 6 Couple of situations, they're pretty 7 close to the existing grade, but four of those ramps 8 have got pretty good grade distance between the 9 existing and the proposal, and -- 10 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: I believe that 11 pre-bid question was addressed more specifically, 12 wasn't it, rather than just a generic -- 13 JAMES WILSON: You referenced some 14 generic standards and pretty much said we have to 15 figure it out. 16 ED CARMICHAEL: Well, I think there's a 17 station-to-station range where the profile match, and 18 there's a minimum of like 150 feet. You know 19 typically you're gonna be looking at about 925 feet 20 per an acceleration, a minimum acceleration, and that 21 was least amount of that we had was another 150. The 22 other two ramps that you mentioned I think there was a 23 lot more where the profile was matching. So it will 24 fit. We're not saying it's gonna be simple, but it 25 will fit, and it does have to be transition material, 23 1 you know, asphalt between proposing existing for that. 2 JAMES WILSON: And all that's 3 incidental. And all that's incidental. 4 ED CARMICHAEL: You guys talked about 5 the way the plans are -- You know contractors have 6 different approaches from time-to-time. I don't know 7 how they construct something, and sometimes the 8 district doesn't like to tie your hands and say you've 9 got to do it this way, so. 10 JAMES WILSON: Well, at the end of the 11 day though -- Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner. At the end of 12 the day we come back to you and it's a design that you 13 don't like, we're gonna give you another design and 14 eventually at some point in time you are gonna like, 15 and then that's going to come back to that incidental 16 pricing that we're gonna have to pay the bill, because 17 what we perceived to be minimum to get by with and put 18 that pricing in our bid in an attempt to get the job. 19 Now we get the job and the first book opens back up 20 because we don't like that plan that we got. That's 21 the rub that we have. 22 ED CARMICHAEL: That I can accept. 23 JAMES WILSON: Yeah. If you've got a 24 minimum drawing that you will accept, that I can hang 25 your hat on, if you want to change that later on, 24 1 we're perfectly fine, as long as the monetary adjust 2 with the plan. I mean you're basically putting us in 3 the trick box. 4 CHUCK KETCHEL: Chuck Ketchel, E.S. 5 Wagner. I don't think you understand how many dollars 6 you could be talking here. You know on a project that 7 we're doing in Toledo right now, that temporary 8 wedging and milling and all this stuff for traffic is 9 up a half a million dollars. This isn't small 10 potatoes that you're throwing around. If we've got no 11 unit prices to go from, then what are we supposed to 12 do, throw half a million dollars into our job that we 13 may or may not use. Give us some asphalt for MOT and 14 some milling so that we can work the thing out. 15 ED CARMICHAEL: I can't speak for ODOT 16 in this case on how they require the plans to be 17 prepared, but the way I guess we look at this is that 18 there's contingency quantity as well as for example 19 the existing shoulder that if the number is in there 20 we would expect, from our perspective, that everybody 21 be bidding on that number. If you ended up needing 22 more, you would have bid price for that item. 23 DENNY HINES: No, we bid for that, but 24 if it changes -- If it decreases, we eat it and if it 25 doesn't decrease, you pay too much, because it's a 25 1 lump sum bid. 2 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Dan. 3 DAN KASEMAN: Dan Kaseman from ODOT. I 4 think we've heard the concern here, and I suggest that 5 we're not making any changes here at the meeting. We 6 will take this into consideration, and we will come 7 back with an answer if any changes will take place. 8 For now, nothing is going to change for how the MOT 9 was up and how it's paid for, so, but we will take 10 this into consideration. 11 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Thank you, Dan. 12 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 13 Brothers. Do you want us to ask individual pre-bid 14 question on all the items concerning maintenance (sic) 15 traffic we got concerns about? 16 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Are you talking 17 in this forum here or via the pre-bid question 18 process? 19 DENNY HINES: Previous question. 20 DAN KASEMAN: You're welcome to present 21 any pre-bid questions that you would like and we will 22 take them all into consideration. 23 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: I would recommend 24 that if you have certain items which it's obvious with 25 this conversation that there are other items and it 26 1 sounds like multiple, that you would present those as 2 pre-bid questions so that they can be looked at along 3 with the rest. 4 JAMES WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner 5 Company. Our biggest concern, E.S. Wagner Company, is 6 you're asking us to give you a lump-sum price on a 7 unapproved design that after the fact will get 8 approved and then live with that number that we 9 included for that. That -- We don't have a problem 10 with generating lump-sum numbers as long as we got 11 some place to hang our hat, okay, but there's a bunch 12 of gray here that we're not quite willing to budge 13 with, I guess is what I'm trying to say, and neither 14 would you be if it was reverse. 15 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: And it sounds 16 like it could potentially be reversed in certain 17 areas. 18 JAMES WILSON: It very well could be. 19 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Point taken. 20 CHUCK KETCHEL: Chuck Ketchel, E.S. 21 Wagner. You've got a couple of pretty good sized 22 pipes that are crossing I-75. Some of which you will 23 bore and some of 'em that you want to try to open cut. 24 Two of 'em are 12 to 13 foot deep. Particularly the 25 one down here on the north end, and there's just, 27 1 there's no room. You can't go out to the middle of 2 the traffic lane because there's no way for a machine 3 to set, and then when you get out there, what are you 4 gonna do once you get out there and do the other side. 5 You need to look at just moving that pipe over a bore 6 and fill in the other ones or something because if 7 somebody does try it, somebody is gonna get killed. 8 MEL WILLIAMS: It also requires 9 removing -- Or Mel Williams, E.S. Wagner Company. 10 Requires removing the 15 inch barrier, and they're 11 telling you you either got to do it at night or over a 12 weekend, and you're gonna put a 54 or a 72 inch pipe 13 in all the way across 75, remove, replace the barrier, 14 remove, replace the pavement and maintain traffic. 15 These are kind of the impossible dream on a couple of 16 these situations. 17 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Could I ask you 18 to state your name for the stenographer, please? 19 MEL WILLIAMS: Mel Williams, E.S. 20 Wagner. 21 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: I think that 22 particular question that you asked, Chuck, was 23 addressed with a -- into a pre-bid question, but we'll 24 go ahead and take it under advisement, again, and take 25 a look at it. 28 1 CHUCK KETCHEL: One of 'em was, and the 2 other one came back, well, we think you can do it, 3 well, you can't. It's pure and simple, you can't. 4 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Okay. We'll 5 revisit the question and take another look. 6 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 7 Brothers. There's a couple places on Page 178, 184, 8 and 189 where the pipe crosses 75. It also crosses 9 some casting lines that are fuel, and very 10 conveniently shows just slipping over the top of 11 those. Some of those you're gonna build the outsides 12 and then do insides, and when you go do the insides 13 it's gonna be too late to raise or lower our pipe, and 14 normally those gas companies won't let you any ways 15 near those pipes doing anything, and I don't know what 16 the utility department is talking to those people or 17 -- 18 MARK ROBERTS: That's a structure at 19 312. BP -- Mark Roberts, ODOT. And right now BP 20 thinks that they get by with, underneath that 21 structure being looked at right now as far as trying 22 to be out of the way, but right now is to leave it. 23 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 24 Brothers. What's going to happen if you get out there 25 and it's in the way and you got a pipe on both ends of 29 1 it done? 2 MARK ROBERTS: I don't have that answer 3 right now. 4 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: That is one they 5 feel that can stay in place. 6 MARK ROBERTS: That is one they feel 7 can be in place. 8 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Craig. 9 CRAIG WING: Craig Wing, E.S. Wagner. 10 In one of the addendums there's was a note add-on 11 sheet 55 that said all the 309 -- Will the MOT plan 12 shown on Sheet 76 satisfy that requirement? 13 JAMES CLARK: As long as all the 14 movements are accommodated. 15 CRAIG WING: Okay. Just wanted to 16 clarify. Can that be clarified in the addendum? 17 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: I would say post 18 that as a pre-bid question and clarify it as an 19 answer. 20 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 21 Brothers. Bid Item 1122 is department share of 22 facilitating part re-cost. Are we gonna put a price 23 on that of a dollar, are you guys going to do it for a 24 dollar? 25 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: How is that set 30 1 up in the proposal? 2 DENNY HINES: Right now it isn't set up 3 in the -- I think we can't it any way. Now the one on 4 the dispute review boards, $105,000.00 is set up, and 5 I don't -- We didn't see anything on the -- 6 JAMES CLARK: I was told that it was in 7 there. It's supposed to be $14,000.00. It should be 8 in your bid -- electronic bidding. Already set up. 9 If it's not -- 10 DENNY HINES: You guys can check on 11 that. 12 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We'll check. 13 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 14 Brothers. There is some alternate items on this job, 15 traffic signals. There's alternates set up in the bid 16 express is AA-1 and AA-2. Traffic signals and the 17 video system is set up as AB-1, AB-2 and AB-3. 18 Traffic signals control is set up as AC-1 and AC-2. 19 And traffic signals video detected signals AD-1, AD-2 20 and AD-3. The Optional payments, there's nothing set 21 up. There is optional asphalt and the concrete. 22 There's a mowing strip is optional. There's two 23 different asphalt concrete mowing strip, and there's 24 earth work on option for the asphalt and concrete, and 25 they're not set up as an alternate bid. Those are 31 1 gonna show up in the bid as a total number. 2 JAMES CLARK: Yes. Signals are 3 alternates. You're talking signals, right? 4 DENNY HINES: No, I'm talking about -- 5 The signals are okay, but they didn't do anything with 6 the payment. We've got all our payments; am I 7 correct? 8 JAMES CLARK: Options. 9 DENNY HINES: Options. 10 JAMES CLARK: You bid an option. 11 DENNY HINES: We bid one or both of 12 'em? 13 JAMES CLARK: One. You pick an asphalt 14 or a concrete option for your payment. 15 DENNY HINES: So we only bid one. And 16 the same thing with the mow strip then? 17 JAMES CLARK: Correct. The options you 18 choose, the alternates you bid both or a multiple. 19 DENNY HINES: Okay. 20 CHUCK KETCHEL: Chuck, E.S. Wagner. I 21 don't think ACSS will let you do that, but you've got 22 to have a bid item for that number. 23 UNIDENTIFIED: Will take the lowest 24 one. 25 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: We'll verify that 32 1 the way it's set up is biddable for you guys. 2 DENNY HINES: Okay. 3 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Any other 4 questions? 5 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 6 Brothers. They talked about if we moved some pipe 7 over to the side and avoid the pipe that's in there 8 and then we've got to plug that pipe at no additional 9 cost to the contract. Normally we would -- which we 10 would remove that pipe. Do we get paid the removal 11 price even though we don't remove it and plug it, or 12 do we have to do that for nothing, plug it for 13 nothing? 14 JAMES CLARK: If you remove it, you'll 15 get paid for removal. 16 DENNY HINES: If we plug it, what do we 17 get? 18 JAMES CLARK: Pay for removal cost. 19 DENNY HINES: We will get -- We will 20 get paid our removal price? 21 JAMES CLARK: Yeah, for all tends and 22 purposes you removed. You chose to move over and 23 leave it, so therefore it needs to be plugged and 24 filled. 25 DUSTIN WILSON: Dustin Wilson, Shelly & 33 1 Sands. It states in the addendum that that'll be 2 included in the bid price of the pipe if you move it 3 over, but there's some places it shows that you take 4 out some and you fill some. Where will that be 5 distinguished where you start and stop at if you're 6 not getting paid for some of it? Some of it, it says 7 you take it out 'cause it's in the way, then when you 8 get -- when it's out of the way, you fill it in place. 9 When you fill it in place per the plan, it tells you 10 to fill it in place. 11 JAMES CLARK: Well, it would be portion 12 if it would have been left in place. The amount that 13 would have been taken in place. 14 DUSTIN WILSON: And that's included in 15 the pipe item remove the way. 16 JAMES CLARK: Yes. 17 DUSTIN WILSON: Okay. 18 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 19 Brothers. I got confused. I thought you just said 20 that if we plug it, we get paid the removal price. If 21 we remove it, we get paid the removal price. Now from 22 what he said -- 23 DUSTIN WILSON: That's why I said that. 24 DENNY HINES: I know you did, but if 25 there's some -- Then the addendum doesn't read that 34 1 way. It says you got to include it in the price of 2 the pipe you put in. 3 JAMES CLARK: All right. We'll take a 4 look at that. 5 DENNY HINES: Okay. 6 JIM WILSON: Jim Wilson, E.S. Wagner 7 Company. In review of the State Route 81, it appears 8 the typical of the existing payment is not complete. 9 You've got one portion of it has got asphalt on 10 concrete, and you got another portion of the existing 11 that's all concrete. And is it possible to get that 12 existing typical of the concrete section that's not 13 included in the typicals? 14 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: You're seeing it 15 on your Field Review that you've noticed it -- 16 JIM WILSON: Correct. 17 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: -- what you just 18 described? 19 JIM WILSON: Yeah. We need to know 20 what that depth is and so forth, because it's 21 different than what's shown. 22 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Can we verify 23 that, guys? 24 JAMES CLARK: (Nodding.) 25 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Yeap. 35 1 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 2 Brothers. If these two jobs or this project is whole 3 part 1 and part 2, the quantities and notes for part 2 4 cover just part 2 and the quantities and notes for 5 part 1 can cover part 1, is that correct? If there's 6 something in 2 that's tougher than it is in 1, if 1 7 stays on its on notes and the other stays on their 8 notes, is that correct? 9 JAMES CLARK: That's correct. 10 TIM OBERST: Tim Oberst, Shelly 11 Company. The proposal note, is it 802 for your 12 contractor design drainage, that's for parts 1 and 2? 13 With the tight schedule for this job, that's gonna be 14 a big delay in getting all those engineering drawings 15 and approvals and all that stuff signed off in time to 16 get the job started. Is that the intent to have that 17 all pipe? 18 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: That is the 19 intent. Any other questions? 20 DENNY HINES: Denny Hines, Miller 21 Brothers. How soon do you think you'll get these 22 transcribed and out to us? 23 JAMES CLARK: I was told by Wednesday 24 I'd receive 'em, so. 25 DENNY HINES: Tomorrow? 36 1 JAMES CLARK: You indicated Wednesday, 2 correct? 3 COURT REPORTER: Today is Tuesday? 4 JAMES CLARK: Yes. 5 COURT REPORTER: Be Thursday morning on 6 my way up here. I have to go Thursday morning. 7 Sorry. 8 JAMES CLARK: Thursday morning. 9 DENNY HINES: And you'll get 'em posted 10 right away? 11 JAMES CLARK: Yes. 12 DARREN SCHIMMOELLER: Anyone else? All 13 right. Well, thank everybody for coming. Thank's for 14 the questions. Anything that we said we would verify 15 or confirm and provide an answer to, that'll be posted 16 here in the near future. As they stated, the 17 transcript will be posted on Thursday. We'll remind 18 anybody that did not sign in the sign-in sheet, please 19 do that before you leave, otherwise, we're adjourned. 20 Thank you. 21 - - - (The meeting was adjourned at 1:50 p.m.) 22 - - - 23 24 25 37 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF OHIO : : SS: 3 COUNTY OF ALLEN : 4 5 I, Terence M. Holmes, a duly qualified 6 and commissioned notary public within and for the 7 State of Ohio, do hereby certify that at the time and 8 place stated herein, and in the presence of the 9 persons named, I recorded in stenotypy and tape 10 recorded the proceedings of the within-captioned 11 matter, and that the foregoing pages constitute a 12 true, correct and complete transcript of the said 13 proceedings. 14 I further certify that I am not 15 counsel, attorney, relative or employee of any of the 16 parties hereto, or their counsel, nor am I financially 17 re in any way interested in the within action. 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 19 my hand at Cincinnati, Ohio, the 10th day of January, 20 2013. 21 My Commission Expires: ________________________ 22 July 28, 2017 Terence M. Holmes Notary Public -State of Ohio 23 24 25 38